“I’ve given up on teaching. I don’t care a damn about teaching any more…[you go] into a classroom and see some crusty bugger who sits in the corner and has been teaching this way for years, and it’s not the dominant style, but they have incredibly positive impacts on kids. Why would you change them? Our debates are too concentrated on how we teach, whereas all the visible learning work tells me it needs to be about the impact of how we teach. Observe the impact….It is a sin for a teacher to observe another teaching in the act. All they do is tell them (nicely and subtly) that they should teach more like them. The only reason for observing is to observe learning”
John Hattie
So true and yet the liberal government at both state and federal want teachers to observe each other.
Hi Mark,
I find this a very powerful quote from Hattie. The demand for feedback for teachers is pushing us towards simplistic observations of complex interactions. I can’t see a doctor or a pilot getting much valuable feedback from a one-off observation. Our most effective feedback is always going to come from our students.
I find this very disturbing and ill placed. Outcomes are all that matter. And of course there is no questioning of the “outcomes” so we see this all the time in schools. As long as your students get good test results we’ll leave you alone. But there are other outcomes. Hattie is essentially say, so you spoonfeed kids, so you tell them the answers, so you don’t let them think for themselves. Good test results? Great.
Also Hattie is a statistician, not an educator. He looks at outcomes. So in his world this is all there is.
Finally, yes doctors do get feedback and coaching. REad this great article.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_gawande
Thanks for leaving a comment Ron. I work with a number of teachers who have been teaching for over 30 years and sometimes they just want to be left alone to do what they have always done. Their students love them and yes their exam results are excellent, but their students are getting more than spoon feeding and teaching to the test.
My concern is with the growing trend to observe teachers and then make judgements on the isolated snippets observed. Instructional rounds and coaching models avoid these issues by providing ongoing feedback and focusing more directly on student learning. I have used the article you link to several times with staff.
The PZ Making Thinking Visible and Making Learning Visible approaches help teachers listen to and value what their students think and say. I believe that teaching teachers to listen to their students is a million times more effective than plonking an administrator at the back of their classroom every three years.
And believe me, I’m no fan of effect size decision-making.
Enjoy Brazil.
Cameron
Dear all,
Sounds like you are no fan of anything except closing the door and following well worn paths from yesteryear.
Knowing your students and their achievement levels and inspring them to higher achievements has nothing to do with Hattie. It has to do with our purpose and role of teaching. Get out of the profession because you are preventing keen educators from making a difference for the kids in our classes. Blame who you want to however it seems you are very negative to whoever has a different view. Instructional rounds have nothing to do with judging staff, teacher practice or appraisal. Someone feels a bit vulnerable .
Hi Peter,
Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. Pushback is always welcome, that’s how we learn.
“Sounds like you are no fan of anything except closing the door and following well worn paths from yesteryear.”
Please take the time to read a bit of my blog. You may particularly enjoy the posts on coaching, teaming, and instructional rounds.
“Knowing your students and their achievement levels and inspring them to higher achievements has nothing to do with Hattie. It has to do with our purpose and role of teaching.”
I wholeheartedly agree.
“Get out of the profession because you are preventing keen educators from making a difference for the kids in our classes.”
Hmm, not sure that this is an entirely constructive contribution to a discussion. I’m wondering how I’m preventing keen educators from making a difference, though to be honest it’s not keeping me up at night.
“Blame who you want to however it seems you are very negative to whoever has a different view.”
The above blog post quoted John Hattie. What was interesting was that Ron Ritchhart, senior researcher at Project Zero and author of Making Thinking Visible and Intellectual Character chose to leave a comment challenging Hattie. I don’t feel there is any blame involved.
“Instructional rounds have nothing to do with judging staff, teacher practice or appraisal.”
I completely agree. Not sure where you thought anyone inferred otherwise.
“Someone feels a bit vulnerable .”
Hmmm. I think we learn through constructive conflict. While I do always endeavour to play the ball and not the man, this commentary reveals a fascinating contrast between Hattie’s statistical approach and Ritchhart’s emphasis on thinking. It’s worth exploring further and it would be great to get them both involved in a debate somehow.
Again, thanks for your time.